DN NA Class

When 6 guys travel 14+ hours together to a regatta, many topics of conversation come up.  One that is discussed without fail on most every trip is that of DN class Runners.  There have been many attempts over the years to change, or limit the runners used in D.N. Class regattas.
Here is my idea that may be discussed for proposal:

Limit the runners to 9 total runners 

#1 - 3 insert runners (can be any current legal runner between 3/16 or 1/4) Naturally, most will go with a 3/16 insert with stiffners and 18inch flat on sides, 14 inch up front.

#2 - 3 1/4 inch plate (or snow runners)

#3 - 3 Angle (slush) runners. 

What I am trying to do is maintain the DN's ability to sail in a wide range of conditions.   

What I am trying to eliminate is:
A: Large, Heavy, dangerous loads of runners packed in cars and trailers. 
B: D.N. Regattas won based upon huge quivers of pricey runners to get a small advantage.  Lets get back to sailing!
C: The big one:  Eliminate the financial hurdle as well as one of the overwhelming technical aspects of DN sailing that has made many prospective new sailors back away from competitive sailing.

Perhaps one can argue to have 2 sets of inserts (1/4 and 3/16 for a total of 4 sets of runners)  But the bottom line is that 95% of the time you can sail just fine on 3/16 runners and the addition of snow plates and angles are a fine option to make sure you dont give up a day of sailing due to imperfect conditions.

When making recomendations to a new sailor you can simply tell them: Buy a set of 3/16 inserts first.  snow runners second, and angles third.  This gives them the option of aquiring runners gradually.  (Incidentally after 8 years I am still looking for snow runners and Angles!)

Another incidental rule that would have to be added is prohibiting use of power sanders in the pits.  Stoning, hand sanding, etc. would be allowed between races.

Being a relativly new comer ,I agree whole heartedly with the proposal and points made.From my perspective it is handicap enough being a newbie DN racer without having to compete against experienced racers with a decided inventory advantage.

One thing that is huge for newer sailors is eliminating variables.  For example, at Ron Sherrys suggestion I went to fixed length side stays a few years ago, and it forced me to focus on what I had control of.  Eventually I was able to determine my plank was too stiff and had a new one made that was dialed in for my weight.  Eliminating variables allows you to focus on what is important.  The top ten (or 20+) sailors are beating me because they are just plain good.  The top 10 are beating each other often because of runner selections.

I agree again,very hard to tune in your boat sailing on your own.I also race the Hobie 16 and the Laser and do most of the training on my own ,but the difference with them is being true one designs there is tuning guides avaliable that will get you in the ball park.
My tuning on the DN has pretty much ran the extremes,from mast step all the way forward to all the way back ,mast raked back and forward...not sure if I am going faster or actually detuning and going slower. ??? ???

One simpler proposal that has been floated around is to simply limit people to 9 runners per season, with the 9 identified before the first regatta.

That fulfill your requirements for transport, but allows people the flexibility to substitute the set of runners they feel is best for them (ex. a set of 100 degree 1/4" inserts instead of slush-runners).

Cheers,

Geoff S.

If your going to propose this I think that one exciting solution is when each sailor pays his or her yearly dues they need to declare their 9 runners for all regattas for the season.  That way its documented and displayed for the class to see.  But lets not limit the current legal runners - just bring your selected 9 to a regatta.  Substitutions somehow need to be controlled.

How about 10 runners. That way could have an insert and a plate steering runner and 4 other pairs.

The guy who does not pay dues until he arrives at the North Americans gets to use 50 runners?
How about fewer sails.  One per regatta?  One new every two years?  How about one mast per season?
There's no end to it.
We've been on this merrygoround many times before.
Forget it!
Let's go sailing.

amen

I Second that! Have seven day of sailing so far this fall. Who's in for this weekend?

Great I want to just go sailing too.  But in 8 years I have befreinded many a sailor who is either no longer with us, or just getting a little too old to get out there as much as they would like to.  Our local club has many newer sailors that will never make the jump to sailing in the NA's or Gold cup because it is out of their grasp(I would still be one of them if it wasnt for my brother in law).  They see lots of equipment, time off, fuel, hotel, and double-fees should the regatta land in their own backyard.  I am frustrated with the fact that our class discusses but never takes proactive steps toward improving our outreach to new sailors.  FACT:  every hobby has lots more competion than they used to.  Our class started in the late 40's and enjoyed great growth.  Now there are several types of downhill skiing, snowboarding, kitesailing with skis or skates, snowmobiling, 4 wheeling, etc.   that compete for attention and participants.
No the runner rule wont solve our problems, but I think it is a major step toward making our class more attractive to new ice sailors.  I would bet my beloved pair of T-runners that the people who most oppose this have a $#^% load of runners already!

I really don't see the problem with the newby racing in the bronze or silver fleet.  Plenty of excitement even on plates.  The excuse that it is keeping them from sailing is just that.  The boat and runners are still one of the least expensive parts of our nomadic sport.  Travel and travel time is the true barrier to entry.

And I will second Bob's Amen.  Someone please find some local central region ice!

So if I get this correct - people are saying that they dont mind lugging lots of extra runners around that they almost never use?  My travel program often involves traveling in groups of 4-6 in one vehicle +trailer.  We sometimes bunk 4 to a room - its not comfortable, but believe it or not some people are into saving money while doing this rediculous sport.

Again, where this subject looses traction is amongst those who have acquired or built their own runners over the years.   Or how about the European community, some of whom are state sponsored?
I have attended meetings over the last 7-8 years and listened with interest what the association wants to do to attract and keep new sailors.  The subject matter has been mostly avoided or ignored the last few years.

Meanwhile, I will sail every chance I get!  I am worried about the dozen or so sailors that we work on every year at our club.  We have a few that took the bait, (3 in the last 3 years +possibly one new one who was hooked at lake christina) but if we dont take a close look at the rest of them, to see what is going on - we may be missing a big opportunity.

KB is hitting the nail on the head with each post.I am one of the newbies who falls into the catagory of wanting to race and be competitive.Yes I am not that naive to think that experience is a big factor but I am finding it difficult to justify going to race when I am at an equipment disadvantage.
The class from my perspective is definitly an arms race.Agian there is nothing wrong with that if it is a thriving class like the A-cat,but when attracting new racers is a problem then the problem needs to be addressed.

When consideration is given to regulating the size and quantity of allowed equipment, it is worthwhile keeping in mind that the tolerances allowed in DN specifications and the rules that specify the quantity of equipment actually made competition more fair than you will find in a one design class like the Laser. 

In a Laser all the equipment is the same.  The variable is the size of the skipper.  Light folks are at a disadvantage in heavy winds, heavy folks are at a disadvantage in light winds.   Tight one design rules do not necessarily equate to fair competition.

But in the DN class little guys and big guys compete evenly in all conditions because DN specs and equipment rules allow the sailor to customize the boat to meet his personal requirements.  Examples: A big guy sailing on soft ice is at a disadvantage if he is forced to use short runners.  The little guy is at a disadvantage if he is forced to use a full sail in a 20 mph wind.  A tall guy needs a longer cockpit.  A fat guy needs a wider cockpit.  A guy who is forced to select 36" inserts before he gets to the starting line may be at a disadvantage if the first couple of days of racing are postponed and then on the third day there is a 4" snow cover on the ice. 

After a sailor spends his vacation time and money to attend a regatta that may go on for several days, it can be extremely disappointing to realize you did not bring with you equipment that will allow you to get around the course on race day, let alone be competitive.   

DN specs and rules have evolved over the years in a way that makes the DN  versatile in handling varied conditions.  This why DN enthusiasts love to race this little boat and year after year work to improve their equipment and their sailing skills.  This is part of the challenge of DN racing.  Once you've reached the front of the fleet, you can be proud that your effort has paid off.  Then you keep working because there is always someone nipping at your heels.

Of course we can't overlook the fact that DN sailors are great to hang out with.

THERE!  THANK YOU! All I was asking for was some good input and discussion on the rules.  Dont dismiss me and say "hey lets just go sailing".   I have already traveled over 1600 miles and its still December!!  I AM going sailing!!!

Thinking this through...  I think I have outlined the runners I feel I need for myself as the basics.  I do agree that the strong point of our class is customizing the boats to the sailors needs. 

I am trying to do my part to get more people into the sport.  TIYC has lots of club racers and occasional "newbies" that are perfect candidates.  We know there is no way to get them all to jump the gap to competing at the N.A.C. or G.C.  But we need to be vigilant in our watch on what is going on.  It only takes one great race or regatta to win a sailor over for Life!   All we have to do is be patient, persistent, and with the cooperation of mother nature and fate - we will hook em!

So okay, taking this topic on another Tack -
An open discussion on Runner selection:
I currently own
3/16" 90deg "Ronny Runners" The carbon winged press-inserts.  These are my primary runners.
The profile is about 17" of .008 of flat ( I am slowly bringing it up to 18") on the sides and 14" on the front runner.

3/16" 100 degree inserts.  they are also at about 17" of flat.   They are an old-style runner with no "lead-in" forged into the front so they are great in light air, and some snow until it starts to hit the top of the "T"  They are not good in deep hard drifts like at last years Gold Cup.

Sarns Bull nose plates - drive me nuts as they rust easily, gouge easily, and weigh a ton! But this is all I have for snow so far.

Wish list in order of need:
Snow slipper runners.  A set of all 3.  (traveled all the way to swap meet in Gull Lake and missed a set by just minutes!)

Slush Runners (Angles).  Not only for slush, but would be cool for hard ice in light air, or ice with runner-swallowing, tiller-breaking cracks.

1/4" Max width "battle runners"  These are for Heavy Air where weight helps, stability and strength of the runner is key.  Also for some soft ice conditions instead of slush runners. 

People need to realize that the previous poster has attracted more new sailors to the class than most of us have.  I have mentioned before that the class should pay attention to the folks in the dn hotbed areas.  Whether the runner issue is real or not it is precived to be a big issue by our newer members.  Toledo will most likely lead the way on this issue with runner restrictions at the club level.  We will report back with data  and facts at the end of the season.

Good luck with this initiative.  Perhaps events scheduled for one or two days could restrict runners and sails more than events scheduled over three or more days. It might attract more participation to attend a two-day regional and not have to take umptiumph sails and runners out to the race course.   Or perhaps the regional silver fleets could be restricted to one sail and six runners for the two-day regatta.  This might encourage the more relaxed racers to attend.   Regional silver fleets might experiment with this format.

This is a good time for this thread. I have been at this sport for 7 years an have realized the need to keep upgrading. I once did win a regional silver with 3/16 inserts. Since then, I have not seemed to have it together, so maybe it is runners. All I have is 3/16 inserts and a 30 year old set of plates in great shape(not rusted anyway).
I agree with Jane, that maybe limit the silver fleets to 6 runners and let the gold do whatever.

The TIYC plan (which has not been accepted yet) is to have a plates only policy for all club races.  (Exeption is the Greiner Open which sometimes attracts sailors from all over Ohio and Michigan.).
These races are typically one or two day regattas.

The purpose? 
-To level the playing field a little between the new and old sailors.
-Force Experienced sailors to focus more energy on helping the new guys with tuning and technique.
-Save some wear and tear on the good runners.

The Downside?
-Narrower range of good sailing conditions
-Not getting the practice of runner selection, experimentation, and handling we could always use for The N.A.'s

People who have never sailed a ranked regatta or won a club race will be allowed to use other types of runners.  The point is to get them up a level.  My experience is that I was very slow until I lucked out a few times and was able to follow some fast people around the course for a few laps.  Its amazing what you learn if you can stick close enough to the leaders to watch what they are doing!  :o

People who are being beat by a leg or a lap...or being barted or dropping out of races are in danger of quiting racing (or worse yet - becoming ice cruisers!)   :'(

We will report our results ...  all we need is some Ice!  This 58 degree weather aint cutting it here!

If sails and runners are restricted in a regional event , do it for both fleets or not at all. By the way isn't that what the plate runner division of the silver fleet is for. Not all silver fleet sailors want to be in the gold but telling us that we can't use our equipment is a bad idea and might just reduce some existing interest.

I dont support making the Regional any different than N.A.'s
We are looking at possible equipment limitations at local club-level events to try to get more sailors to graduate to Regionals and N.A.'s

   Guys, in my humble opinion you are focusing on the wrong things.  don't worry about trying to build a huge runner arsenal or legislate the elimination of "fringe" runners or amount of runners.  I watched Matt Struble win the NA's, Worlds, and Europeans in the same year on the same 3 runners in a wide variety of conditions.  I watched JD sail every major regatta last year on the same set of thin inserts and finish 4th at the GC.  If you have a set of these focus on making the edges perfectly straight and get the crown right.  This is not easy.  You need a good straight edge, a good sharpening machine, and a low end gun scope.  Invest in these tools and learn how to use them.  A set of thin inserts and a set of snow plates with perfect edges will make you competitive in any gold fleet on 95% of the sailing days.  I built a set of nice angle runners long ago and have used them in one race in a big regatta in 13 years.  Matt still beat me in that race on his thin inserts.  Make the runners you have perfect and you will go faster.

Steve O 4926
     
   
   
   
         

Steve makes a good point, one that I first heard expressed by Paul Goodwin at least 10 years ago.

Technology has really made the modern 3/16" insert suitable for all wind-strengths. It is no longer necessary to have "beefy" 1/4" inserts for high-wind days. I've sailed my thin inserts in ~25kn of wind (and I'm solidly in the "100 kilo club").

FWIW, my next runner acquisition will be a second set of 3/16" 440C inserts, so I have a spare in case I damage my primary set and so I can have a "fun" set for casual racing without worrying if my "regatta" set is in great shape after every club weekend.
Next up would be swapping my Sarns plates for a set of 440C plates, just because 400C is so darn tough.

Cheers,

Geoff S.

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I continue to think that runners are not as much of an issue as most people think for domestic events.  They are an issue for international events- somewhat.

I think most people can acquire runners at about the same pace as they can figure out how to use them.

If you started out in the sport with 20 different runners, I think you would be worse off then if you had 6 or 3 for that matter.

The first time I qualified for the gold fleet, I owned 6 runners, (3)  3/16 inserts I made myself and (3) 26” sarns plates that came with my boat. 

The first time I raced in Europe, I brought 3 inserts, 3 snow plates and 3 slush runners.  No problem.

Now, 10 years after I started racing DN’s, I carry the following to Big events

(3) pit runners  crappy plates I bought at a swap meet

(3) 3/16 inserts 90°  440C  Built myself  Sherry Steel

(2)  ¼” inserts 90° 440C  built myself  Sherry Steel

(3) snow Plates 26” 90 ° 440C  Bought from Ron Sherry

(2) plates 30” bullnose 90° 440C Bought from Ron Sherry

(3) slush runners  100°  316  Built myself  Steel from Steve duhamel

 

Not including labor, I have ~4500$ invested in  racing runners, total.  I have never broken or bent a runner.   In 16 worlds/Na’s/Euro’s I have used my ¼ inserts at 1 event, plates at 4 events, and 3/16 inserts at the rest.

Bottom line you need #3 3/16” inserts, and 3 snow plates.  At the very pointy end of the gold fleet, having options helps. 

 Runners are a great investment. One of the best investments is a set of cheep pit runners, so you don't ding your good runners getting out to the race course.    The real cost of racing DN’s is travel. 

Granted, I do not race, I just enjoy sailing DN's and other iceboats.  It seems to me that if 3/16 inserts are now so durable, if the class opened up to allow 36" plates, life would become simpler. You could have 3/16" 440C plates at 36" & 26" lengths and be pretty much done with it. The technology of inserts just raise cost. The primary advantage is length over the plates. If we just allowed any type of runner construction between 26" and 36", it would be simpler. Of course, there is still the rare need for angles.