DN NA Class

Mark Keifer is working his little brain off promoting this sport.  He has a vision of a short course event with television and spectators.

I know, I know.

His latest promotional video can be viewed at


http://www.worldiceracingcircuit.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

Think melting snow.

Ken, you may want to look deeper into this.   View their promotional trailer.  Clever editing, but it's fake.  I consider it fraudulent. 


Browner
5298

Whoa, strong words.  As a testifying expert, I cannot agree.  Nothing in the video says the pics are of the proposed circuit.  What would you do?  Talk and show no pics?  The video footage is real sailing of the real boats in a variety of real races. 

Trailers are never made with the real movie footage. 

IMHO, Mark is one of the few whose efforts may result in the long term health of the class.  Also, of course, those promoting the youth development and the Ice Opti class are also laying the foundation for a future of our class.  I observe that most of the E-Skeeter skippers are much older than my 57 years, and not enough young blood is coming into the class to sustain it.  I certainly do not want this happening to the DN class.

Agree or disagree as you will with a change in race format to promote safety, visibility and requiring a smaller venue.  Agree or disagree with promoting a version of racing for spectators.  As for me, I certainly agree that visibility of the fun and excitement of sailing our little boats can only promote more participation.

And that is a good thing.

View the video.  It attempts to create the impression (for the benefit of making money) that this racing exists.  It doesn't.  Fake. Fake.  Fake.   It's one thing to cut in a shot to tell a story in a regatta video, but this is the type of stuff that ends up being the subject of university ethics courses.   

I think that rather than trying to promote what to me seems to be an uninteresting way to compete in a DN, we'd be more successful attracting young people into DNs if we had our championship regattas on weekends, rather than in a week long format.  Students and those just entering the work force, as well as those also concerned about keeping their jobs or keeping their businesses viable, would certainly find it more inviting to participate on weekends.

Has anyone examined the correlation between diminishing number of participants, particular younger people,  and the introduction of the week long format?

....DN 805

While I love the week-long getaway for Worlds / NA's I have to agree with Jane on the weekend format being more attractive to more people, espescially students.  However, the overiding issue is mother nature...  as is going on right now, the nation seems to be snowed out, and the week long format seems to help address the issue of finding some ice somewhere during that week that has been selected for the event - even if it means extra travel.  This is one of those inherently unattractive parts of our sport that keeps people from spending time and money on the sport, or eventually causes some to lose interest.  What to do??
We at TIYC used the oval track format one day last year to get some sort of racing off.  It was not an "official" race, but both racers and spectators had a great time, and it is sure to become a new tradition for our club for that inevitable beautiful winter day that only has a small amount of good ice.  I will certainly post pictures and videos if/when we have this again.  We plan on scorkeeping and creating awards for this event this year.
Now if someone from our club just had a four wheeler with a plow, and maybe a big water pump...  we could do this every weekend between now and March!
I applaud Marks Efforts, even if it seems over the top to some people.  I do however cringe at the reporters statement in the youtube video that iceboating is a "contact" sport!

These are forums for the exchange of ideas...

My tip of the helmet to "Browner" for raising the issue. on this forum..causing people to think!

The single issue in this dialog that troubles me is this...

There is a large body of creative work causing this dialog, and some, would just as soon steal it.

Stealing ideas is no better, no more honorable than stealing money.

When I show that "trailer" and explain the concept to the teenagers in my house, they want to go blow an oval in the lake and try it out.   These are the guys that would prefer snowboarding to sailing, but  they are very enthusiastic about sailing in that format.

There is room for all.  I applaud Mark and his efforts.

These comments are great as they are clear examples of the problem.

A)  To John Bushey's point, this is not a question about oval racing.  We did it 30 years ago.  It was a blast although one guy got hurt pretty bad.   Everyone should know that when sailing parallel to a snowbank, if a runner touches the snowbank, the boat is immediately sucked into the bank.  The sailor stops like hitting a wall.  It's not anything like our beloved Out-of-Boat experience.   My suggestion to any parent is to plant yourself into the snowbank first before you decide to send your kid out there.
B)  This television concept has nothing to do with promoting iceboating.  Being on TV is not promoting a sport.   In fact, data shows that amateur participation declines because TV has to hype something up and freak it out so the programming is engaging to some bubba on a couch in Alabama.

The core of my objection is simple -- We are the IDNIRYA.  It's our association.  This TV company should not be using our racing to promote their private interests. 

Scott,

Good point on the relative hazards of sailing in the two formats.  However, maybe you haven't see 19 year old snowboarders in the Rockies.  I have one and this is looking pretty tame in comparison.

I'll leave the discussion of the merits of TV exposure to other....

John

Clarification:

In my prior post I, perhaps better drawn, I was not meaning to imply that any fellow iceboat had a hair of larceny, this group of people are some of the finest human beings I've ever encountered.

It's rather difficult to really explain the thought, better perhaps left unsaid.

4695

I'm not terribly thrilled about eating Lutefisk, but that's a personal taste based on my experiences in previously eating that stuff, while I find the dish repugnant, I understand others love it.  I don't know anybody who has ever held a valid opinion about Lutefisk by just reading about it.

Much as we all enjoy the thrill of ripping on Big Ice... I couldn't help but notice that once again this weekend, with the Western Regional Regatta Postponed,  the only choices in Ice Racing seem to be: Race on a Short Course... or Stay Home and blog about how uninteresting Short Course Racing is, because YOU CAN'T SAIL THE WAY YOU WANT TO SAIL THIS WEEKEND, IT'S NOT AN OPTION.

The single biggest contributing factor in the small numbers of ice boaters is this, you can't plan on Iceboating the way we love it.  We pull the rabbit out of the hat every year with the Western Challenge with an exhausting amount of front end work, tracking ice conditions on several hundred lakes as they freeze. 

4695

Let it known.  We do not sail around on plowed tracks here in Minnesota.   All this discussion about how good it is and how much good it is doing for us. 

It's absolutely amazing.  IT DOES NOT EXIST!

There is an effort to create a made-for-TV event.  But it's private.  Anyone who thinks they can just show up and be there racing at the end of the day is mistaken. 

And by the way, participation is not down because of a lack of ice.  The two highest reasons (and I quantified this) that a iceboater stops racing are age and a desire not to chase technology.  Rare ice actually increases participation -- it's called random reward.


Browner
5298

To Scott's reasoning (even quantified, interesting) that the second highest reason for the drop in participation is a "desire not to chase technology"...

I sometimes think this too, although I have stayed fairly competitive without embracing any new technology since I bought a fiberglass mast in the mid '90's, the prior breakthrough was insert runners in the late '80's.

The problem with this thinking becomes obvious when you go to Europe for a World Championship.  Most people have seen the European boats when they come over here to race.  Mostly they are beautiful boats, immaculately finished, with a really high tech look.

What a lot of people don't realize is the boats they race here are their junkers, the backup to their backup boats.  The Europeans embrace new technology, and their boats reflect it - the very latest thinking in chocks, immaculate carbon masts, beautifully made carbon fiber "glamour trinkets" that have absolutely no effect on boat speed.

And with all this glitzy high-tech looking boatage, in Europe they have to turn sailors away during registration for the Worlds because have put a cap at 200 entrants.  Young sailors pile in cars, with boats and sails stacked up on top, and drive for days to attend.  When I was their 5 years ago, they had over 50 kids sailing in the DN Junior regatta, which took place the week before the IDNIYRA Worlds.  The number of DNs in Europe has grown steadily while ours in North America decline.

I think we need to look for other reasons to blame for lack of participation in North America, not the changing technology.

First I would like to applaud Mark on his new creative venture and think that it is very cool  idea ,as  I get ready to fire up the snow blower again here in Wisconsin 7 inches  of new snow..Also thanks for the last 10 years or so of chasing around looking for the best ice for the Western challenge.I think the exposer localy or wider Nationaly  could do nothing but increase awareness of our sport and possibly bring in some new members.I also think the efforts of Dan Hearn and the promoting of the Opti program is the other way we can interest younger people in this obscure sport.
AS far as using film clips of DN racing and using it to promote a new venue ,its called advertising. Sometimes advertising as we all know crosses the line between what is fact or fiction it serves one purpose to get peoples attention and interest.
I think the technology issues have settled out with the introduction of the composite mast thanks to Ron and Jeff for pursuing the production of the current composite masts.Some guys may need to buy a new one every year but I tend to agree with Paul that they tend to be very durable as I have been beating the crap out of one I built about 5 years ago and it keeps on going.I dont see any major changes in the masts except possibly different layups to promote different bend characteristics.If you have a mast that is soft add some carbon if its to stiff get out the belt sander.I guy can buy a used boat and used mast and be competative.
I think the younger kids have a lot of other interests or choices,soccer,Hockey,snow boarding snowmobiling and work to put gas in a car or save for college Whatever,
As far as safety looks like the oval  racing is about as safe as comming in on port at the windward mark and trying the stuff yourself in between 5 to 10 starboard yacts or  driving a car , or walking across the street to get the mail.
My 2 cents
See you on the ice when the snow melts.
any one got a plow?
Rasty Dn1313

To Paul's comment:  I got really sick about five years ago, and spent several months recovering.  During that time I did a study just to keep busy trying to figure out why someone owned an iceboat, but didn't race.  I was also the commodoroe of the Nite Fleet at the same time. 

That said, don't confuse the information I learned with my personal opinions.  They are not the same.  The perception of the technology issue does not match reality, and we would benefit if we deal with it.  I'm not pushing for greater or less technology.  It's a marketing issue.

As for Bob's comments:  go for it.  Plow your track.  I actually plowed a track earlier this year, as well as 30 years ago.  Shorttrack is cool for a day or too.

I've negotiated TV contracts for NASCAR, ABC sports, etc.,etc.  I know this biz.  When people present information that doesn't pan out as true, we show them the door.  Quickly. 

   

A Big Whoop for Browner...

Somebody has to stand as the "Defender of the Faith"  and he's doing a great job... for the sake of our sport, these issues should be in dialog...

While I'm seriously uncertain whether his "Defense of the Seven Sacraments" is 'tounge in cheek' or genuinely sincere, they could be much better, I'll send him some private email thoughts on how to improve his arguements!  If I were playing his role, rather than mine, I think I'd be doing a much better job! ;)

By the way, there's only one reason we're not sailing short course racing today in Minnesota, Wind = Calm.  We've got a conga line of 4 plow trucks to groom a track ready to go, three laps around and we're sailing on something that's wider than the Talledaga Super Speedway in Alabama.

To clarify some other things,
1. US 5366 won the Great Western Challenge Regatta short course races on Pulaski in 2007.
2. US 5224, Newport RI, won the Short Course Championships in March 2008 on White Bear Lake.
3. The boys from Toledo raced a 50 lap short course event last spring...

This is real!

Just because some refuse to belive it's real doesn't mean much... call me a Spherist if you will, but the simple facts are, THE WORLD AIN'T FLAT.  I know there are some that disagree...

the Fire on Ice exhibition event at Lake Phalen for th St Paul Winter Carnival will be free and open to the public, anybody with a white sail and bare boat is welcome to participate,

4695

It does seem like there are two entirely schools of thought, We must have gone to different schools with profoundly different philosophies about Business Ethics!

Why are we here?   ??? 

I know there are people who go into business "to make money", in my mind, they're a disgustingly greedy bunch of people, who add little if any value society.  In my mind, an unconscionable way to live.  And I wonder how many of this projects real critics are of that school of thought.

This isn't what the World Ice Racing Circuit, LLC.  or this sailor is on this planet to do.

The way I understand life, and business, the purpose of a business, it's more justification for existence is not to make money. The purpose of a business is to fill peoples needs, and you keep score on how well you're filling peoples needs by how much money you make.

We see a few needs we think we can serve.   If this project ever makes a penny, it'll be because we've succeeded in doing that.

4695

   I'm too old and probably not bold enough to get serious about circuit racing, but don't count it out. We have two major problems with our wonderful sport and we all know what they are, an aging group of sailors and in recent years it seems a lot of snow. Circuit racing seems to me a way to cure these problems. Look at other types of racing. Auto racing has oval track, road type track, endurance etc.. Sailing has everything from around the buoy racing to around the world. They all have a following and don't seem to hurt the other types , why can't we do the same. If it helps the sport or seems that it might, let's support each other and give it a shot.