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Author Topic: Hardened vs. Unhardened Runners  (Read 10349 times)
DNewbie
Newbie

Posts: 23


« on: October 26, 2009, 03:48:45 PM »

I'm at the darling mark in my DN build and now have only to get hardware and install it. At the moment I'm thinking about runners. The Collected Wisdom seems to suggest that Sarns Bullnose runners would be a good choice for starters. At this point construction fatigue is setting in. I've done hull, mast, boom and plank, so building inserts isn't appealing at the moment Tongue. Seems that Sarns runners come in hardened and unhardened versions. Is this true? I've tried contacting Sarns but get no response. I live and will sail in the Northeast. Any thoughts on which would be better?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 03:52:36 PM by DNewbie » Logged
Bob Gray
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Posts: 194


« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 04:24:53 PM »

I was told his later runners including bullnosed runners were induction hardened. His later runners had that yellow coating  ( I can't remember what it's called). Bob
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Geoff Sobering
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Posts: 461



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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 04:28:41 PM »

Sarns Bullnose are definitely the first set of runners to get (IMHO).

If you're in the NE, I'd suggest contacting Steve Duhamel at Northwind Iceboats - I believe he's a Sarns distributor:
http://www.northwindiceboats.com/

Somewhere recently I seem to remember seeing a post about a set of used Sarns runners for sale (here?  Maybe the Yahoo "Iceboating" group?).  I'll see if I can find it.

Cheers,

Geoff S. - US 5156
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Man Why You Even Got to Do a Thing
Geoff Sobering
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 04:39:02 PM »

I'm not sure when Sarns started hardening runners.  Bob is correct that recent (at least ten years - probably much more) runners were induction edge-hardened.  The most recent runners I've seen from Sarns have all been black painted (some kind of tough epoxy or the like).  My set was bought just before Bill Sarns sold the business to the current owner, and they are black.

Hardened runners will hold an edge longer than unhardened ones, but they are more difficult to sharpen/re-shape.  I don't think it's crucial to get a set of hardened runners (for example, if you get a really good deal on an old set).

For that matter, the "Bullnose" profile isn't really critical either to get started.  It allows for a longer crown, but you can have a lot of fun on a old set of "Alligator" runners...
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Man Why You Even Got to Do a Thing
Geoff Sobering
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Posts: 461



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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 04:44:32 PM »

Here are the for-sale postings I remembered:

http://dnamerica.org/forum/index.php?topic=668.0

http://dnamerica.org/forum/index.php?topic=674.0

http://dnamerica.org/forum/index.php?topic=672.0

Some inexpensive inserts (maybe still available?): http://dnamerica.org/forum/index.php?topic=589.0

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Man Why You Even Got to Do a Thing
Ken Smith
ADMIN

Posts: 289


sail often, travel light


« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2009, 07:15:03 AM »

90% of the time or more in the conditions I sail, 3/16 inserts, 36 inches long, sharpened with 18-20 inches of .008 crown are the runners of choice.  If there is ice within 200 miles, I sail.

On smooth or pebbly ice with no snow cover, Sarns bull nose are sometimes virtually as fast.  If snow is deeper than 1.5 inches and not sticky, the Sarns might be better.  Deeper than 3 inches and light wind, the Sarns (or a stainless steel version) would work and the inserts would not.  Sarns steel runners are almost never the best runner, but they always work.  I have a set and use them as traveling runners, to get to and from races when sand, goose poop, or vegetation on top of the ice would be bad for the inserts.

Search diligently and find some very good 3/16 full length inserts, then learn how to sharpen and care for them.  After the boat and sail, its is the very best investment in the sport.  Maybe even better than the sail, as they will last much longer.  Ron Sherry makes excellent runners, and they are worth the  many pennies they cost.

Don't worry much about hardness.  Invest in a diamond sharpening stone (available at ACE or TrueValue hardware stores) and you can keep the softest steel runners sharp even on the ice between races. 

Worry about alignment, boat tuning and tiller time.



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Ken Smith
DN4137US
ERIC ANDERSON
Class Member
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Posts: 29


« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2009, 10:22:29 AM »

First off, welcome to the wonderful world of iceboating.  The “best” runners depend on what you are planning on doing with them.
Depending on where in the north east you are in the NEIYA swap meet Is Nov7 in Mass. 
http://www.neiya.us/ for more details.
If you are interested in  entry level  racing I would  start  with   30”  bull nose sarns Plate runners  .   Learn how to sail them in all conditions and then move on.  These runners are a compromise for all conditions, but they are not the best choice in any conditions.    It is very important that they be properly aligned to the plank.  Find someone near you that is a good racing skipper to take you under their wing and show you how to  align your gear and then sharpen and stone runners.  Practice on the bullnose runners before you start working on any inserts.   

If I were doing it, my first set would be 30” sarns plates.
My second set would be a good set of 3/16” 36” 440C stainless inserts with a 30” 3/16” steering runner.  This is your primary set of runners and will be used ~90% of the time.  I would either buy the steel from Ron  Sherry and make the bodies or buy the completed runners from him. 
The third set would be 26” 440C Stainless slipper plate runners from Ron Sherry.  (Steve Duhamel might have stainless plates also)
At this point the sarns runners would be retired from racing and would be my pit runners and general sailing around runners.  Personally I don’t think it makes sense to go beyond  3/16 inserts and  snowplates until you are racing for 3-4 years.

If you plan on cruising, you may never want anything more then plate runners. Ron Sherry makes Kick Ass 440C  stainless Bullnose plate runners.

Cheers,
Eric Anderson US 5193
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sail fast,
US 5193
DNewbie
Newbie

Posts: 23


« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 02:35:32 PM »

 Learn how to sail them in all conditions and then move on.  These runners are a compromise for all conditions, but they are not the best choice in any conditions.    It is very important that they be properly aligned to the plank. 


Thanks for all the great advice, I'm trying to absorb as much information as possible while still being realistic about goals and budget. The quote from Eric sums up nicely where I am at as hardwater sailor. I expect my first year out will be a lot of trial and error and headscratching. Then I should be able to figure out which direction I need to go.
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