Runner Limitations

[KB [us5219]]

THERE!  THANK YOU! All I was asking for was some good input and discussion on the rules.  Dont dismiss me and say "hey lets just go sailing".   I have already traveled over 1600 miles and its still December!!  I AM going sailing!!!

Thinking this through...  I think I have outlined the runners I feel I need for myself as the basics.  I do agree that the strong point of our class is customizing the boats to the sailors needs. 

I am trying to do my part to get more people into the sport.  TIYC has lots of club racers and occasional "newbies" that are perfect candidates.  We know there is no way to get them all to jump the gap to competing at the N.A.C. or G.C.  But we need to be vigilant in our watch on what is going on.  It only takes one great race or regatta to win a sailor over for Life!   All we have to do is be patient, persistent, and with the cooperation of mother nature and fate - we will hook em!

[KB [us5219]]

So okay, taking this topic on another Tack -
An open discussion on Runner selection:
I currently own
3/16" 90deg "Ronny Runners" The carbon winged press-inserts.  These are my primary runners.
The profile is about 17" of .008 of flat ( I am slowly bringing it up to 18") on the sides and 14" on the front runner.

3/16" 100 degree inserts.  they are also at about 17" of flat.   They are an old-style runner with no "lead-in" forged into the front so they are great in light air, and some snow until it starts to hit the top of the "T"  They are not good in deep hard drifts like at last years Gold Cup.

Sarns Bull nose plates - drive me nuts as they rust easily, gouge easily, and weigh a ton! But this is all I have for snow so far.

Wish list in order of need:
Snow slipper runners.  A set of all 3.  (traveled all the way to swap meet in Gull Lake and missed a set by just minutes!)

Slush Runners (Angles).  Not only for slush, but would be cool for hard ice in light air, or ice with runner-swallowing, tiller-breaking cracks.

1/4" Max width "battle runners"  These are for Heavy Air where weight helps, stability and strength of the runner is key.  Also for some soft ice conditions instead of slush runners. 

[rpotcova]

People need to realize that the previous poster has attracted more new sailors to the class than most of us have.  I have mentioned before that the class should pay attention to the folks in the dn hotbed areas.  Whether the runner issue is real or not it is precived to be a big issue by our newer members.  Toledo will most likely lead the way on this issue with runner restrictions at the club level.  We will report back with data  and facts at the end of the season.

[DN 805]

Good luck with this initiative.  Perhaps events scheduled for one or two days could restrict runners and sails more than events scheduled over three or more days. It might attract more participation to attend a two-day regional and not have to take umptiumph sails and runners out to the race course.   Or perhaps the regional silver fleets could be restricted to one sail and six runners for the two-day regatta.  This might encourage the more relaxed racers to attend.   Regional silver fleets might experiment with this format.

[MICHAEL]

This is a good time for this thread. I have been at this sport for 7 years an have realized the need to keep upgrading. I once did win a regional silver with 3/16 inserts. Since then, I have not seemed to have it together, so maybe it is runners. All I have is 3/16 inserts and a 30 year old set of plates in great shape(not rusted anyway).
I agree with Jane, that maybe limit the silver fleets to 6 runners and let the gold do whatever.

[KB [us5219]]

The TIYC plan (which has not been accepted yet) is to have a plates only policy for all club races.  (Exeption is the Greiner Open which sometimes attracts sailors from all over Ohio and Michigan.).
These races are typically one or two day regattas.

The purpose? 
-To level the playing field a little between the new and old sailors.
-Force Experienced sailors to focus more energy on helping the new guys with tuning and technique.
-Save some wear and tear on the good runners.

The Downside?
-Narrower range of good sailing conditions
-Not getting the practice of runner selection, experimentation, and handling we could always use for The N.A.'s

People who have never sailed a ranked regatta or won a club race will be allowed to use other types of runners.  The point is to get them up a level.  My experience is that I was very slow until I lucked out a few times and was able to follow some fast people around the course for a few laps.  Its amazing what you learn if you can stick close enough to the leaders to watch what they are doing! 

People who are being beat by a leg or a lap...or being barted or dropping out of races are in danger of quiting racing (or worse yet - becoming ice cruisers!)   

We will report our results ...  all we need is some Ice!  This 58 degree weather aint cutting it here!

[Bob Gray]

If sails and runners are restricted in a regional event , do it for both fleets or not at all. By the way isn't that what the plate runner division of the silver fleet is for. Not all silver fleet sailors want to be in the gold but telling us that we can't use our equipment is a bad idea and might just reduce some existing interest.

[KB [us5219]]

I dont support making the Regional any different than N.A.'s
We are looking at possible equipment limitations at local club-level events to try to get more sailors to graduate to Regionals and N.A.'s

[orly4926]

   Guys, in my humble opinion you are focusing on the wrong things.  don't worry about trying to build a huge runner arsenal or legislate the elimination of "fringe" runners or amount of runners.  I watched Matt Struble win the NA's, Worlds, and Europeans in the same year on the same 3 runners in a wide variety of conditions.  I watched JD sail every major regatta last year on the same set of thin inserts and finish 4th at the GC.  If you have a set of these focus on making the edges perfectly straight and get the crown right.  This is not easy.  You need a good straight edge, a good sharpening machine, and a low end gun scope.  Invest in these tools and learn how to use them.  A set of thin inserts and a set of snow plates with perfect edges will make you competitive in any gold fleet on 95% of the sailing days.  I built a set of nice angle runners long ago and have used them in one race in a big regatta in 13 years.  Matt still beat me in that race on his thin inserts.  Make the runners you have perfect and you will go faster.

Steve O 4926
     
   
   
   
         

[Geoff Sobering]

Steve makes a good point, one that I first heard expressed by Paul Goodwin at least 10 years ago.

Technology has really made the modern 3/16" insert suitable for all wind-strengths. It is no longer necessary to have "beefy" 1/4" inserts for high-wind days. I've sailed my thin inserts in ~25kn of wind (and I'm solidly in the "100 kilo club").

FWIW, my next runner acquisition will be a second set of 3/16" 440C inserts, so I have a spare in case I damage my primary set and so I can have a "fun" set for casual racing without worrying if my "regatta" set is in great shape after every club weekend.
Next up would be swapping my Sarns plates for a set of 440C plates, just because 400C is so darn tough.

Cheers,

Geoff S.

[eric_anderson]

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I continue to think that runners are not as much of an issue as most people think for domestic events.  They are an issue for international events- somewhat.

I think most people can acquire runners at about the same pace as they can figure out how to use them.

If you started out in the sport with 20 different runners, I think you would be worse off then if you had 6 or 3 for that matter.

The first time I qualified for the gold fleet, I owned 6 runners, (3)  3/16 inserts I made myself and (3) 26” sarns plates that came with my boat. 

The first time I raced in Europe, I brought 3 inserts, 3 snow plates and 3 slush runners.  No problem.

Now, 10 years after I started racing DN’s, I carry the following to Big events

(3) pit runners  crappy plates I bought at a swap meet

(3) 3/16 inserts 90°  440C  Built myself  Sherry Steel

(2)  ¼” inserts 90° 440C  built myself  Sherry Steel

(3) snow Plates 26” 90 ° 440C  Bought from Ron Sherry

(2) plates 30” bullnose 90° 440C Bought from Ron Sherry

(3) slush runners  100°  316  Built myself  Steel from Steve duhamel

 

Not including labor, I have ~4500$ invested in  racing runners, total.  I have never broken or bent a runner.   In 16 worlds/Na’s/Euro’s I have used my ¼ inserts at 1 event, plates at 4 events, and 3/16 inserts at the rest.

Bottom line you need #3 3/16” inserts, and 3 snow plates.  At the very pointy end of the gold fleet, having options helps. 

 Runners are a great investment. One of the best investments is a set of cheep pit runners, so you don't ding your good runners getting out to the race course.    The real cost of racing DN’s is travel. 

[DN5135]

Granted, I do not race, I just enjoy sailing DN's and other iceboats.  It seems to me that if 3/16 inserts are now so durable, if the class opened up to allow 36" plates, life would become simpler. You could have 3/16" 440C plates at 36" & 26" lengths and be pretty much done with it. The technology of inserts just raise cost. The primary advantage is length over the plates. If we just allowed any type of runner construction between 26" and 36", it would be simpler. Of course, there is still the rare need for angles.