steel for runners

[iceboater000]

I was wondering if the prices of the runner sets in sarnshardware.com are for hole set or for only one runner.
Is the 1050 steel they use the ultimate steel for snow runner like 440c for insert runner. Is it possible to buy the steel somewhere on internet? I know that sherry sales 440c but i think its quite expensive. I need both of them.

[Ken Smith]

I think I understand the questions.

The price in Sarns is traditionally for a set.

No the carbon steel is not the ideal ice runner.  In wet snow, especially, it is not fast.  I am not sure why you think you need these runners.  They are a great starter set and sail ok in most conditions.  In hard black ice, with a good wind, the runners make little difference and if you check the PIBD string, that is the conditions most usually sailed.  I've been beat by some good sailors with Sarns plates on on many occasions.  In the Western Regional Championship, a competitor in the plate runner division often also takes home a trophy in the open division.

But if I were investing in runners once, I'd buy a set of Ron's 440c "slippers" and a pair of 3/16 440C 36 inch inserts.  The slipper would be the steering runner.  That would get you going in 95% + of the conditions you are going to see or want to sail in.  These runners are durable, easy to care for, and best or nearly best in all ice conditions except slush.  And in compliance with my motto:  Travel light, sail often.

Of course, then you'd have to blame yourself for going slow... so consider getting the Sarns.  They are not really slow, but a great excuse!

[iceboater000]

Is it possible to buy only the steel plates on internet to make about 3-4 sets. If i buy the sheet/plate from metal supplier it would be cheaper. What to mean with by "slippers"(snow runners?). So 440c is ideal for almost for any condition?

[iceboater000]

Is the slippery runner short snow runner and bullnose runner long snow runner and why u didnt reccomended me the bulnnose runner?

[Bob Gray]

      What Ken is suggesting is that a set of 3/16, 36" inserts are the best all around runners and the 26" slipper runners are what is used for snowy conditions. As far as metals go, 99% of the time 440 stainless is the best choice, the problem is that it is very expensive. Unless you have access to a machine shop  and a heat treater, don't even consider making you own. Several years back the Muskegon club made their own and even back then, each blade ran somewhere between $180 and $200. If you want 440C runners, buy a used set or get them from Ron Sherry. There are other choices then 440C such as carbon steel, mild steel or 304 stainless. They aren't as good as 440C but they are cheaper and easier to build primarily because the steel is cheaper and  the very expensive heat treating isn't required.
                                                                                  Bob

[Geoff Sobering]

Ron Sherry's current price for 36" 440C runner steel is $275 each (shaped, drilled, flattened, heat-treated, etc.).

IMHO (and based on pricing out doing it myself) that is a bargain.

For comparison purposes, Northwind Iceboats' price for the same piece is $425 (which is still very reasonable when you consider all the processing that goes into making it).

[iceboater000]

is it possible to buy steel for slippery runners from Ron?

[Ken Smith]

Can you buy the steel for the SLIPPER runner? 

Yes.  Ron will sell runners ready to race, rough finished (steel in bodies, but not finished or sharpened), the steel ready to mount (shaped, heat treated, flattened) or whatever you want to do.  You will pay for the material and as much time as Ron puts into the work you buy.  He is a bargain, as he truly loves the sport!

You could buy two 3/16 blades and three slipper blades ready to mount and do all the rest of the work yourself, and I have done just that.

I build a set from scratch once.  Never again. 

Find, order steel, ship steel.  (Kaching)  Shape the plan-form, drill the holes, rough grind the edges. (I can do that)  Blanchard grind the sides to final thickness and shiny finish. (Kaching) To the heat treater. (kaching) OOps they warped!  Flatten with ball peen hammer and torch. (Kaching) Polish. 
                                  OR SKIP ALL THE ABOVE
Order ready-to-mount runner steel from Ron Sherry.  Write a check.  All the above is done!
                                  THEN
Make bodies.  Glue steel into bodies with glass and with threaded rod in the little holes to make the bodies strong. Glue carbon on the outside of bodies.  Sand and shape the noses and tails. sharpen, profile and polish edges. 
                               OR SKIP ALL THE ABOVE
Order ready-to-sail runners.  Write Ron a bigger check.
                              THEN
 Align runners (sand and shim bodies with fiberglass) so both edges are identical when in the chocks (runners interchangeable).

Why slippers instead of bull nose?  If the air is light or the snow is stiff, the slippers are best.  They turn easier in snow, and offer less resistance in stiff snow.  If is windy and the snow is fluffy, the inserts are the way to go until the bodies are always in the snow.  Then and only then are the bull nose better.  To minimize inventory, I'd go with the slippers.  This gives you three potential steering runners, and the ice contact area is only a very few inches less than the bullnose, especially if you intentionally put in the right profile.

What do I mean by slippers?  The steel is shaped with a tail and a cutout above the tail, so the back of the runner moves less snow when it turns.  The top of the runner has a cutout from in front of the chock to just behind the nose.  In raw form, they look like Arabian slippers, hence the name.  The front cut out is usually filled with some wood, and Ron paints the stiffeners down to a height that hides the wood.  Some have wood/carbon stiffeners.  Light, efficient, and great in snow!

,,,||||||;,,;i'

[Hal]

I have a set of "bull nose" style runners listed on NH Craigs list  http://nh.craigslist.org/spo/1654092108.html  . 

 2 are 30 and one is 26 inches long.  They have been cut out of 1/4"  AR400 steel.  This stuff is very hard and holds an edge very well.  If you are interested I can ship them anywhere in the US for $25.   These are the blades that I use.  Through this list I will sell them for $100.  Hal

[Geoff Sobering]

What do I mean by slippers?  The steel is shaped with a tail and a cutout above the tail, so the back of the runner moves less snow when it turns.  The top of the runner has a cutout from in front of the chock to just behind the nose.

1 picture = 1k words...

http://www.iceboating.net/node/627?size=_original

[iceboater000]

And sherry sales slippery runners exactly like that? I am european and have never seen someone sailing in Europe with runners like these . Arent they too soft? Our snow runners are exactly the same:D but we dont have the cut out hole kind of things:D. And front cutoff is to reduce weight? And how much stiffeners add weight then?

[Geoff Sobering]

I am european and have never seen someone sailing in Europe with runners like these

I'm not sure who invented the "Persian Slipper" runner.  I first saw one on Jeff Kent's boat at the 2004 North American regatta.  The early ones were steering runners, so the side-forces are low and the only stiffener that's needed is right in the chock.

And sherry sales slippery runners exactly like that?

Ron's runners look like normal snow-plates.  The front cutout doesn't extend much below the stiffener, and it's filled in with a piece of wood.  After painting it's hard to see.  I believe the stiffeners are wood/carbon, but I don't have a set to check (if anyone wants to send me a set, I'll be happy to examine them, report back, and return them... sometime after next season  )

And front cutoff is to reduce weight? And how much stiffeners add weight then?

I think so.  I experimented with an ancient Sarns plate last summer.  I cut the steel to minimum length with a cut-down tail and the "slipper" cut-out at the front.  I added a full-length (and un-tapered) stiffener made of wood and carbon that is the same dimension as the normal Sarns aluminum stiffener and filled in the cutout with wood.  The final product is noticeably lighter than a normal plate runner.  I'll try to remember to weigh it and an un-modified steering runner when I'm cleaning out my trailer.