DN Class Retention

[DN 5449]

Not to upset the apple cart,and only being a new member I do not want to step on toes,but  watching Ron Sherry's Clinic (on youtube),and specifically the comments about bringing new bloood to the class got me thinking.
First a little background, I have been sailing(soft water) and racing since a young age.Most of my experience has been in one design classes (windmill,Laser,Hobies).I have putten a lot of effort and time to my sailing and competed at a fairly high level(haven attened quite a few nationals and one Worlds).Being completly naive,when I bought the Dn this year I wanted to get one that I thought I could be competitive in.Now I also know that I have a very steep learnig curve to have the skills to be real competitive in the class for a few years.What I am becoming increasingly aware of is that you have to invest quite a bit of extra cash to compete at a top level.I am very suprised to find that not only can you stamp in three sets of runners but also two sails.
Being competitive by nature (not rich) I guess I was some what disilussioned thinking my initial investment would allow me to be competitive and not have equipment as an excuse.I realise that initially this will not be the case but I could see myself in the future being very interested in competing at a high level.
So you are probably thinking "and your point is".I guess what I am wondering if there is any thouight being given to reducing the amount of equipment that one is allowed at regattas.I think by doing so would not only allow sailors like myself,that would like to compete on a level field but also youth sailors to be competitive.

If any of these comments are out of line or offend anyone I apoligise now and will happly delete the post.
BTW the individuals I have met both personnaly and thru this forum have been exceptionally helpfull,and I thinh the comradery is a real strength of the class

[Ayes]

my $0.02 ... (Canadian or US at par value ;-))
I am one year into this game, very new by any measure.  I have found the same things that you have as far as the willingness to share information and the people in the class, both are huge assetts to the sport.

The interesting thing about racing DN's is that unlike most softwater fleets where everyone, top to bottom, is in one fleet, here you are broken down into Gold, Silver and Bronze fleets and can work your way through the ranks of each fleet using the resources you have at the time.  Rome wasn't built in a day and it is unrealistic to expect to compete at the same level as someone who has been playing the game for 10 or 20 years (or sometimes much longer than that).  I also think that it is also a bit unrealistic to buy a boat and expect it to be the perfect vehicle you need to win races right out of the gate.  Yes it does turn into a bit of an "Arms Race", but there are so many different conditions that present themselves a very strong argument could be made for more than 9 runners and 2 sails. (no I am not advocating that position, 9 and 2 is just fine thank you)

my newbie advise to a newbie is this: strap on your helmet and enjoy the ride, because win loose or draw the moments we are able to spend with our friends while iceboating in the end is what it is really all about.

Ayes

[Geoff Sobering]

IMHO your comments are totally NOT "out of line" - quite the opposite.

Since I've been a member of the class (about 10 years) various proposals have been submitted to reduce the amount of equipment allowed/required.  So far, few (none?) have been accepted.  The reasons are many; the dominant one is that each piece of "specialized" equipment allows the DN to sail in some condition that it wouldn't be able to otherwise (ex. snow-plates and slush-runners).

As Ken Smith, Paul Goodwin, and others point out, the amount of gear you need to compete in the most common situations is reasonably small: an AP sail (ex. FO-1), a steering runner, and two 3/16" inserts with wings. 
At the 2009 World Championship, Jim McDonagh took a photograph of Matt Stuble's collection of gear in the pits: http://www.iceboating.net/node/2712 
That's all you need to win the regatta (along with a magic touch on the tiller and mainsheet  ).

As Ayes points out, the other thing the class does to help increase competition is the multi-fleet system. 
It may take you awhile to win the Gold Fleet, but it's likely that on the way you'll have a lot of great races against others in the Silver and Bronze fleets (not to mention winning some cool trophies).

Cheers,

Geoff S.

[DN 5449]

Thanks for the perspective.I guess I was getting a little over whelmed when I watched all 6 of Ron Sherry's clinics last night.Made me realize how little I know and how much I have to learn, looking forward to getting more invoved in this great Class.

[DN 805]

The DN is not a "one design" class.  Fortunately, the tolerances for each of the components enables tall, skinny, fat, and short sailors to be competitive in each of the ice and wind conditions encountered.

 In a J24 you need adequate "beef " on the rail in a breeze.  In a Laser if you weigh 160 lbs you can't compete with the 200 lb sailor when it blows 25 mph, or vice versa if in blows 8 mph. 

One design sailboat fleets can drift across the water in margainal conditions and if tough enough can sail in severe conditions.  Iceboats simply cannot move at all in some ice and wind conditions and when ice and wind conditions are too severe, the boats are destroyed.

The variety of equipment that is allowed in a DN enables the boat to be sailed by sailors varying in size and strength and to sail in a variety of ice and wind conditions, many of which can be encountered in a long regatta.  We have learned that without this variety of equipment, we simply are unable to sail.  The preference of class members is that being able to sail is better than just standing around.  Thus the preference for the variety of equipment.

But keep in mind that a good set of runners will last forever.  And it is possible to win with a ten year old sail.   How many one design sailboats win without fresh sails?  In Lasers and Star boats it's a new sail for each regatta.   

Don't worry about the equipment.  Enjoy the boat and focus on sailing technique.  The champions have been at it for over 20 or more years. Good starts, finding the laylines, sailing the shifts, while moving the boat at top speed are the primary components for success along with sharpening and aligning runners and tuning the rig.     When you have mastered all these, then worry about the equipment cache.

Looking forward to seeing you at the Western Challenge in December. 

...sneaky scribe

[DN 5449]

At 5'-8 160lbs, I have been there done that on a Laser,not fun when you are hiking off your toes and watch the big guys just pull away upwind.
The Western Challenge is already penciled in on my calender.

[ERIC ANDERSON]

Your point about equipment is quite understandable.  It is quite intimidating when everyone starts breaking out the “gear”.  Personally I would be happy to outlaw “t” runners, fat and thin.  I think that inserts and plates are absolutely necessary.  There are times when slush runners extend the sailing season at the end of the year.  I think if they were eliminated, racers would start to carry a set of max width inserts ground to 110 deg so it would not change the number of runners you need.
As far as sails go, it is good to have 1 all around sail, and 1 flat sail.  I figure you are going to replace one sail every year to 2 years.  The older sail will still be worth about ½ what you paid for it initially so the yearly cost is actually between ¼ and ½ sail per year.
Runners:
In reality, most years, people have the same stuff on the starting line.  3/16 inserts, or snow plates.   The first time I made it into the gold fleet, I owned 1 sail and 6 runners, 3 inserts I built, and a pair of sarns 26” snow plates that came with the boat. 
I own and carry considerably more runners now, but at this year’s NA’s I ran 3/16” runners.  Last year at the worlds and NA’s I ran 3/16” runners.  At the worlds and Europeans in Czechoslovakia the year before, I ran 3/16” inserts.
You can own a zillion runners, but you only use a few sets most times.
My priority would be:
1.    3/16 inserts (2)  36” long +3/16” steering insert 30” long
2.   26” minimum snow plates(3) stainless if possible
3.   “Pit” runners (3) to get me out to the race course without damaging my good runners.  These are super el cheapo plate runners that you buy at a swap meet. 

After these  runners I would add in order of decreasing priority:
4.      max weight ¼” inserts(2) for very heavy air conditions
5.   A second set of 3/16”   sharpened to 100° for light air and softer ice
6.     Slush runners (3)
7.     30” bull nose plates for  heavy air snow conditions
8.    Minimum tee’s  100 degrees
9.   Maximum tee’s 110 degrees
I own # 1,2,4,6,7
In the last 13  Worlds/Na’s/Euros I have been to, I used  3/16” Inserts in  (10) events, ¼” inserts in (2) events and plates in (4) events. The first 2 times  I sailed on  plates because it was all I owned. I would have preferred 3/16” Inserts.  One North Americans.  I would have used slush runners if I had had them. 

In the end, it is far more important to have your runners in perfect shape and carefully aligned then to have lots of different ones. “Most” years you will be fine with very limited runners.  I actually think it is a lot better to have less stuff at first so you don’t have so many choices.
Cheers,  Eric

[DN 5449]

I can see myself in the future increasing my inventory of equipment.As for now I am hoping just to sail and get better without breaking any thing,as my wife is quick to point out my Ice sailing budget has reached it's limit for this year.Hey Christmas is only 8 mths away.

[Geoff Sobering]

Hey Christmas is only 8 mths away.

And a lot of the iceboating season is after that!